Classic Alfa Forums

Kev,

how do you wind up the nuts on the cam wheels to 76 - 84Nm without the cams turning over?

Edward wrote:Kev,

how do you wind up the nuts on the cam wheels to 76 - 84Nm without the cams turning over?

ah.

i've a special tool, well one i made, just for the job.
should be doing them tomorrow night

Can you stick a photie up of said special tool… please.

Edward wrote:Can you stick a photie up of said special tool… please.

will do

although it will prob be tuesday now, just made arrangements to go collect my new 147 tomorrow night now.....

That would be great.

Can I ask when you put the cams in is there any special procedure with the oil seals? I am assuming you had new ones. The ones I have here seem to have a bit of a chalky substance on them, albeit very thin. Just wondering if you used any other adhesives or lubes other than engine oil on the cam to seal surface. Any tips would be handy….

there has also been talk in the past of the valve springs being able to be fitted the wrong way up, they are more tightly bound one end than the other.
didn't know this myself until assembling the last 16V, hard to notice until you look closely.

this pic is of a pair of the outer springs (harder to notice on the inners, but they have the same difference) where the one on the left has a tighter bound spring, hence mass, at the bottom of the pic.
it should be fitted with the tighter part to the head, to do with unsprung weight apparently.
easiest way to see the difference is to look at how far along the oil bridges the gap, the tight end will have oil further round the spring, if you see what i mean

Edward wrote:That would be great.

Can I ask when you put the cams in is there any special procedure with the oil seals? I am assuming you had new ones. The ones I have here seem to have a bit of a chalky substance on them, albeit very thin. Just wondering if you used any other adhesives or lubes other than engine oil on the cam to seal surface. Any tips would be handy….

yes, new oil seals.
i smear fresh engine oil (have a can to hand, one of those pump things) on the oil seal part that meets the cam and on the cam itself.
i also put a thin smear of blue hylomar on the outer lip of the seal where it seats into the housing.
i've a deep 30mm socket that's a nice size to tap them home, deep so it will go over the cam end and not damage or snag it, and big enough so it knocks onto the outer edge of the seal. helps to knock it in squarely too, although a hammer on its own can work just as well.

change of plan for tonight, couldn't fetch the 147 so an evening down the shed again..

other head was bolted on after the broken oil return fixing was drilled and tapped out.
cams installed but the inlet one gave me real grief, wouldn't remain smooth in turning when clamped down.
tried all sorts, even another camshaft, but still sticking.
this was on the head that was ok of course, so what the hell was going on?
then tried it in with no hydraulic followers, succes!
at least that showed it wasn't anything to do with the bearing caps or anything.
seems 2 of the followers were reluctant to compress enough, maybe being out for a while they'd shifted inside?
changed them for 2 good ones and hey presto, sorted.
kind of dampenned progress though.

did put the cam cover on though so the engine could be levelled out on the stand, was a bit precarious on the tilt!!

ed asked me about tightening the cam pulleys, not easy as the cams don't have any flats on them to get a big spanner on it.
you can jamb a screwdriver against one of the 10mm bolt heads behind the pulley, but it can be a bit tricky to hold and prevent damage.

i made up a little tool to fit in the holes in the pulley and allow a socket to go through the centre.
just made from bits of scrap and a few old bolts, does the job a treat.

Hmmm….. yes, that tool looks interesting! Strangely they don't appear to have one of those down at Halfords. Anyway, meanwhile whilst having my black metal backing plates shot blasted and powder coated it will give me time to source something.

TBH hadn't thought about fully rotating the cams in the heads with the caps on to compress all of the valves etc. I would have missed this all important step had you not mentioned it. I guess I would have found any problems though once I had the belts on and rotated the engine a few times to make sure there were not any glitches.

I understand what you meant about putting the valve springs in the correct way. I have heard about that issue before. For me though I stripped what I am sure is a factory built head, to took all the springs, tappets and the likes out of a head, left them all in their original orientation and direction and re assembled the heads with everything in the same way. Fingers crossed the factory did things in the correct order!

Starting to get together now a list of parts that I need for mine. Reads something like this:

Graphogen
Gasket sealant paste
Throttle body bolts - 2 rounded off!
Temperature sensor in TB
Omex system to run the thing
36-1 trigger wheel & sensor
Throttle position sensor - not the normal Bosch one as Omex won't work with it
Inlet stacks & trumpet openings
Metal back plates powder coated
Tool for holding cam wheels & borrow someones torque wrenches
Cambelt and pulley kit
Some exhaust studs
Modified sump

That is just the small list of things….

It is great seeing your build Kev, especially around the same time, as being able to look at and blow up photos really helps to make sure things are being done in the fashion that others do. Thanks.

I was stupid enough to leave the cam pulleys loose and I dropped the engine in :/

Now I need to do the same, although the thought of an angled air gun and some locktite has crossed my mind...
I think I can just hold them in place with my hand, or even with the old timing belts on

That's not a bad thought.

Recently I was trying to get nut off the end of the alternator. Tried for ages with normal tools, with not much to hold onto. Took it to the car tyre people and they put the air gun on it and it was straight off without having to even hold the pulley wheel. The speed and the shock just does an amazing job. Although the pulley is still off (converting mine to polyvee set up) I am sure when it is time to put it back on, a quick zipp with the air gun will sort it. It could work for your cam wheels - but perhaps someone else could advise for sure…..

the impact guns will loosen the nuts but i'd not trust them to be tight enough....or overtightenned...an i wouldn't use an impact gun with the belt still in place, not a new belt anyway, the shock loadings could do untold damage to the belt teeth

you can get away with poking a flat screwdriver through one of the holes and wedging it against one of the backplate hetaining bolt heads. but be careful, they can slip easily.

the tool i made is very simple to make and comes in handy for all engines

and chris, i've picked up a 147 JTD tonight

Kev, could do with some suggestions please….. argh!!!! Bought a set of standard cams of John at Justsuds which seem all well and good. Have tried two of them in the passenger side head and when winding down the cap screw nuts the cam just jam. In fact they jam so solid I can not turn the cams by hand using the cam wheel. I thought perhaps it was something to do with the tappets so took them out, still no joy. Then thought it may be too much build lube (Graphogen) so took all that off and just used straight forward oil on the bearing surfaces - still no joy.

I have checked that the caps are orientated correctly with the '1' at the bottom left to match with the '1' stamped in the head and then working along the numbers (orientated correctly) on one side, until you get to the '6' in its correct orientation on the other side - but still not joy. I am only just nipping up the bolts on the bridges before even applying the 20 - 24 Nm and the cams are locked solid when trying to turn the cam wheels by hand.

The only things I can think of is that either the cams are bent? or the clamps have got mixed up from one side of the head to the other - by the person who worked on and supplied the head? That would seem unlikely as I can't see any reason why he would do so.

Have started to run out of ideas now. Can you tell me how easy should it be to rotate the cam wheels with cams in on their own - and with tappets in place.

Any suggestions why mine are jamming up? Could be something simple perhaps for a novice engine builder…… any thoughts…..

Sorted…. the caps were on the wrong head!

Swapped the cam bearing caps over and ….. hay presto.

well done ed, just in from the shed and read your post

you've solved the issue now but to answer your original question, the cams should turn really easy by hand. if they don't then never continue building it up, it will sieze and snap the belt with disastrous concenquences





bit more done tonight but was delayed by solving a few issues to the 147, always an excuse!

new water pump fitted. the bare metal internal part of the block where the pump fits always rusts up when the engine is in bits, cast iron tends to do that. can cause issues when the pumps are being removed, maybe. not sure if it helps but i smeared some anti-freeze on the bare surfaces to try and prevent corrosion forming. anti-freeze is also a corrosion inhibitor, whether it will help or not i don't know, but if anyone tries to remove the pump in 10 years time then please let me know how you got on

next job was to press on the new cam-belt pulleys.

quick guide below as to how to do them, if you've not done them before.

i use my homebuilt press but a sturdy vice will do the job, they aren't in overly tight.


first pic is what you get, the bracket that holds the pulley and holding pin visible through the centre of the bearing.

you need to push the pin out from the back of the mounting bracket whilst "catching" it in a suitable sized socket.

it's all pictured stood up in my press, which is really little more than some heavy duty steels and a bottle jack. as the socket is pushed up (which rests aginst the bearing on the old pulley) the punch above pushes the pin out, and into the socket.

what you end up with is laid out on the bench. note the slim washer that sits between the bracket and the pulley bearing.

to fit the new one back in i knock the new pulley onto the pin first of all, one less thing to wobble around, making sure to find a socket that sits over the pin but rests against the bearing surfcae, not the seal part.
you don't need to knock the pin fully through, in fact you can't how it's laid out due to the offset plastic wheel, but just enough to get the pin through the bearing.

then back into the press to push the pin fully home.

pulleys and other cover fitted, belts will go on tomorrow night.

nearly ready for the install.....

Getting there Kev ! Love the homemade press

Johnboy wrote:Getting there Kev ! Love the homemade press

i love the price of the homemade stuff mate


a little more done tonight, time split between getting this engine done for install this weekend and solving issues on the 147..

timing belts now on so almost ready to drop in

Agree why buy if you can make

had a day on the 33.
got the old donor engine out, new one installed, eventually.
just needs everything putting back on now

out with the old, in with the new

now, for a confession.

when i fitted the donor engine it had a very good clutch on it, yet when i drove the car it slipped!
wasn't leaking any oil onto it, clutch slave was new, pedal returning fine, etc etc.
a mystery.
could only sumise that the flywheel must have issues, so left it at that to have a look when the engine was swapped over.

on taking the old engine out the clutch was a bit oily/greasy, but not massively so...
flywheel at first looked a bit iffy but after another look and clean up it was declared ok, even rang shrew to see if he had a spare...but not needed.
looked at the rear crank seal, no oil leaks.
gearbox end dry too......very odd.

i then pulled on the release fork to see if there was anything to see...and a nut promptly fell out from behind it!
it had been trapped between the back of the fork and the gearbox casing thus preventing it returning fully away from the clutch, the poor release bearing must have been having a terrible time!

luckily i'd already ordered a new 3 piece clutch so that was fitted, along with another clutch fork just to be sure it hadn't been twisted in any way.

you can make out in the pics where the nut had been sat, amazing how it had stayed there for probably 100+ miles of driving!

That's unreal Kev
But I too have a confession too. I've just remembered . when I had the HF turbo , I bought some drive shafts borrowed a mates car lift swopped them over went for a drive and there was a kicking ? Thought they where nackered put old ones back on .went for another drive clicking - tapping still there now with the old ones??? Had a look around and found a bolt had dropped down and was touching the driveshaft as it spun

we do make some silly mistakes eh?

i'm just happy i found the fault, can't wait to try the 33 for real now

Yep
They're great cars and you already know 16v engines

KevJTD wrote:

we do make some silly mistakes eh?

speak for yourself, i'm perfect!



mummy told me so.....

petrolhead wrote:

KevJTD wrote:

we do make some silly mistakes eh?

speak for yourself, i'm perfect!



mummy told me so.....

different to what she told me

Doh!



oh wait, i know,


she told you the "special soldier" thing instead didn't she, yeah, that'll be it

KevJTD wrote:

SteffenJ3316V wrote:Nice Can't remember if you changed the big ends ?

didn't change them. might seem crazy not to but they were all inspected, measured with plastigauge and all well within spec.
mains & big ends.

I heard that there are 2 or 3 different sizes from the factory. How do you tell them apart?

SteffenJ3316V wrote:

KevJTD wrote:

SteffenJ3316V wrote:Nice Can't remember if you changed the big ends ?

didn't change them. might seem crazy not to but they were all inspected, measured with plastigauge and all well within spec.
mains & big ends.

I heard that there are 2 or 3 different sizes from the factory. How do you tell them apart?

think there were a few options whe current, not seen any for sale now besides standard size though.

i used plastigauge to check for clearance and were nicely in the given specs