NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

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PETROLHEAD
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NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Hi all

i thought i'd open this up for discussion here because many folk i have mentioned it too seem to have that look on their face that tells me its the very first time they've heard of it, OR theyve heard of it but the technology scares them off, because it is a bit more advanced than a clothes peg for half choke! ha ha!

I'm not claiming to be an authority on it myself either, BUT, i have been doing my homework on the subject more recently, and i think its worthy of a good chat about it, because i think many of us Classic Alfa lads n lasses may just be missing a trick otherwise.

This isn't just for the petrolheads and modifiers like me, it will fit, suit, and benefit any standard distibutor era car too, but it has to be said, on carbs or efi, this sort of system is a very cost effective way of bringing it all together with maximum benefit.


So whats wrong with our distibutor system? Well some folk will already know the limitations of a distributor type ignition. Whilst it does do the job, it can certainly only do one job. The iginition curve, i.e. the pattern of the amount of advance of the ignition spark compared to piston position on the firing stroke, is fixed, there is nothing you can do to adjust it, with the exception of changing its base start point compared to the tdc marks, but the pattern of the curve will always be the same, so therefore you just moved the whole pattern one way or the other, and not changed the pattern.

Whilst this works to give a very very simple advance mechanism, it can definitely work a lot better, plus whilst the rest of the world moves on, in areas such as fuel variations and changes, spark plug technology, there may well come a time when this inflexibility starts to become even more of a limiting factor in what and how we drive.

Other engine mod's that may allow quicker and higher rev ceilngs would also soon find the limitations of the distributor, which is commonly the device use to perform a hard cut rev limit, but put all this together with the fact that other than a new cap and rotor arm, most of our distributors and some coils, will be around 30 years old already, and you could probably expect the spark itself and its reliability to suffer and weaken too over that sort of time as a result.



For many years there have been some great replacement systems for the distributor ignition, most well known being the Megajolt, sister product to the full engine management version, the megasquirt.

This type of system replaces the vacuum or mechanically advanced distributor and amplifier coil, with an electronic box, and typically a wasted spark coil pack and Edis unit from a donor car, commonly a ford fiesta type thing (Urghh!) Once all loomed up and plugged in, you can adjust the pattern of ignition advance via connection to a computer/laptop, preferably on a rolling road, and therefore maximise your spark timing for your given engine spec, fuel, and driving load and engine conditions etc.

It does this so much better because instead of a 2 dimensional fixed graph line,
ignition curve.jpg
made up of fixed parameters such as vacuum or mechanical advance mechanism against rpm, resulting in one line of advance pattern, the Megajolt picks up load signals from precise crank position (CPS), and throttle position (TPS) or manifold pressure (MAP) to measure what the engine is doing currently and reacts very quickly to what you want it to do next, and how the ignition advance needs to match that, with a 3 dimensional ignition pattern.

The ignition pattern is almost indefinitely variable, by altering values of exact degrees of advance, by entering the figure itself into a 10 x 10 table (maybe a 12 x 12 now). Experienced rolling road operators and live mappers will be able to maximise your ignition curve for snap response, driveability, flat out wide open throttle acceleration, even economy and best of all reliability too.
SparkTable-10-10-2008.jpg
looking at similar information formulised into 3d
7495605014_f2cd7da717_z.jpg



On top of all the above, this is worth HP and Torque, clearly where my main interest came in then! ha ha! :lol: :lol:


So, hopefully now you're all excited about fine tuning your ignition curve options, for a big bright spark, better running, and more reliability, and trust me, until recently looking into it, i thought it mostly gobbeldy gook myself, and probably not applicable to me, so i hope i've explained my learnings well!

BUT, as the title suggests, there is a new kid on the block to consider :o


NoDiz, at its name hints, is another method of eliminating the distributor ignition, and achieves this is very much the same way as Megajolt does, in fact the NoDiz developer once built and developed Megajolt units, but has gone his own way with all new hardware, software and computer coding to do it.


This is where i came into the fray if you like, and i started to realise much more about the benefits of ecu control, or at the very least, ignition control, and it was stumbling across NoDiz that made me sit up and take notice for real this time.



The NoDiz is simpler to install as it doesn't use an Edis coil, it will use any wasted spark coil pack, so no need for Ford parts! yippee! It is also even more variable by having 16 x 16 cell table for the ignition values, and its computing power is bigger faster better etc.

Its also got some great gadget value too (gotta Love a gadget!) in that it also comes with a bluetooth interface, allowing you to not only set up, program and map the thing without having to connect to it with a cable, meaning a more discreet install for the concours lads possibly too, but it will also allow you to display a dashboard of vital info, calculated from a mixture of the engine sensor info that supplies the NoDiz brain with its signals and gps i should think from your phone/device,

such as this
$(KGrHqN,!hEFDCTYB0K-BQ5Cs5smgg~~60_35.jpg
$(KGrHqN,!hEFDCTYB0K-BQ5Cs5smgg~~60_35.jpg (11.82 KiB) Viewed 19377 times

Looks pretty bloomin awesome to me!





Now i have no axe to grind, Megajolt is and has been doing a great job for lots and lots of happy customers, and i also have no gain to be had from all this, i probably won't even be buying one myself, but thats only because i own other similar equipment already, but i thought i'd share the info i'd learnt as i think this could be a really excellent addition to many of our cars,

AND,

as i understand it, the official retailer and developer of NoDiz, Matt, is a good egg, and is known to do excellent small number group buy deals.



So the floor is open, the topic "Distributorless Ignition"

please discuss! :D
SHREW

I AM the Law!


Alfasud 1.7-16v, Charade Turbo SR, & The Dirty Diesels - GT Cloverleaf, 159 Ti Sportwagon, Saab 9-3 Sportwagon

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by Jube »

Very nice write up Mr Shrew and on a subject very close to my heart.

I personally like both products but NoDiz gets my vote, it's more feature rich, runs on newer technology and as mentioned doesn't require a Ford EDIS-4. Plus, I really like the idea of connecting it to a Tablet to use as a digital dash. :D

It is however a little more expensive, even after taking into account that it doesn't need an EDIS-4.

Do I feel a potential CAF Group Buy on the cards?

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Jube wrote:Very nice write up Mr Shrew and on a subject very close to my heart.

I personally like both products but NoDiz gets my vote, it's more feature rich, runs on newer technology and as mentioned doesn't require a Ford EDIS-4. Plus, I really like the idea of connecting it to a Tablet to use as a digital dash. :D

It is however a little more expensive, even after taking into account that it doesn't need an EDIS-4.

Do I feel a potential CAF Group Buy on the cards?


Yes mate, you certainly feel correctly.


I'm going to speak with Matt directly on a few things, but the teasers are already there, and it looks very positive for a great deal from them.
SHREW

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by Kermit »

Simple question from a simple guy :roll:
Will it fit on my car?
Will it make that much difference (5 - 10 BHP)?
Can I set the "rev limiter" where I like ?








Oh and how much £ are we looking at :D

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PETROLHEAD
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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Ayeup H

Yes, it will fit your car, the perfect candidate.

hp and torque gains, I'm not experienced enough to answer that one with conviction H, but control, reliability and driveability are the primary aims, but in all honesty, I cant see a scenario such as with our old dizzy systems where this sort of thing would not be beneficial in terms of a performance, but hopefully someone such as Bryan or Tom will contribute when they get time. That said, you wouldnt find a car such as theirs running a dizzy! :lol:

JUBE has been researching this subject in some depth too, and has found many examples of cars with stock motors, but improved in/out breathing and ignition control that claim to make handsome reading.

Rev limiter will almost certainly be programmable im 99% sure.

As for price,. Watch this space!
SHREW

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by AlfaCorseChris »

watching

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by Markgq4 »

nice write up shrew.
am also interested in price of such a system ..

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Ok guys, here's the latest.

I have spoken with the man himself, the designer and builder of his own Nodiz system, Matt, and invited him to join us on the forum.

Hopefully if ive desribed anything incorrectly he can put me right for starters, but also he can answer any technical queries you might have.

We've spoken briefly about the possibility of a small number group buy, or multi purchase discount through his distributors, and it all sounds likely to be very attractive.

Lets discuss it further, and see where we go from there eh?

Cheers
SHREW

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Alfasud 1.7-16v, Charade Turbo SR, & The Dirty Diesels - GT Cloverleaf, 159 Ti Sportwagon, Saab 9-3 Sportwagon

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by Johnboy »

Will he be making a full mappable ecu for injection ?;)
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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Thats one of my own queries JB too, sit tight, and hopefully i'll know a little more soon.
SHREW

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by mattatme »

Evening all!

I'm Matt from Motorsport Electronics, designer of the NODIZ, and after chatting to paul today, and reading his VERY good post at the top here, thought it best to say hello.

If you have any tech questions feel free to ask, but as Paul said, if you guys can get together a group of 5 I can supply the NODIZ at 25% off retail (£299), so that's coming to you for £225inc VAT (postage is £7 to the UK)

That is complete with unterminated loom, bluetooth module etc.

I have done a series of videos on both the NODIZ and all things EFI on my youtube channel, which may be of interest, and in answer to your question about full EFI, yes, we will shortly have a new engine management system called the ME442. To keep it brief, 4 cylinder, wasted spark, inbuilt wideband and under £450... :)

YOUTUBE: (Please subscribe :) )
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN0wLj ... 88jfe_6W6g

Anything questions, fire away :)

Cheers,
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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by kammatic »

Hello Matt,

hope you can help, im looking to install a alfa 75 twin spark engine into an older GTV,

can / would nodiz handle twin spark engines? ie two plugs per cylinder - two wasted spark systems side by side if that makes sense

what options do you have for load signal, ie vacum signal or throttle sensor?

am i ok to use the standard 60 less 2 trigger wheel or is it the ford 36 less 1, and can you change where the tdc marker position?


any info would be great, thanks
lib

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

I think i can help with most of that Lib.


With the exception of the twin spark query, i think the answers will be as follows

load signal will definitely work with TPS, as that is what i will be using, same goes for the alfa's 60-2 trigger wheel.

the crank angle can be absolutely set for its base reference i believe, and not an as close as with other modules.



just a quick for you though lib, iirc, the twin spark system on the later stuff, cf1/2/3 engines etc, is actually a staggered time spark aswell isn't it, hence the different temperature plugs due to re-igniting an already mostly spent fuel mix, but is this the same for the 75 twin spark, or are they parallel fired in tandem?


in which case, i wonder if the NoDiz would work in parallel for you in an 8 cylinder mode?



Matt, over to you? :?
SHREW

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by Kermit »

Ok I can understand that with fuel injection this would be quite easy, but as (I belive) pre fuel injection engines have no crank sensor and no throttle switch :roll:

I guess I'd be looking at someone to make those up for around another few hundred quid ?

Really like the idea though but it does make it rather expensive :o

H

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Actually, No H


Because yours is a carb car, as you quite rightly point out, you don't have a 60-2 trigger wheel attached to the flywheel,

BUT

what you can do instead is attach a 36-1 trigger wheel to the front crank pulley instead, bracket for a sensor and your away.

theyre all over ebay. and probably available from NoDiz directly i should think (Matt?)


all in all, i suspect you'd be looking at around £50 of extra expenditure on top of a car that already has a trigger wheel left over from their current set up, and that would be to buy a trigger wheel, a sensor, and then machine your front pulley a tad to accept and fix the wheel to it, bracket the sensor,

Job Done! :D


Or you could of course get hold of a 33 16v flywheel, sensor, and clutch in one go as part of an upgrade kit?
SHREW

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by Kermit »

petrolhead wrote:Actually, No H


Because yours is a carb car, as you quite rightly point out, you don't have a 60-2 trigger wheel attached to the flywheel,

BUT

what you can do instead is attach a 36-1 trigger wheel to the front crank pulley instead, bracket for a sensor and your away.

theyre all over ebay. and probably available from NoDiz directly i should think (Matt?)


all in all, i suspect you'd be looking at around £50 of extra expenditure on top of a car that already has a trigger wheel left over from their current set up, and that would be to buy a trigger wheel, a sensor, and then machine your front pulley a tad to accept and fix the wheel to it, bracket the sensor,




Job Done! :D


Or you could of course get hold of a 33 16v flywheel, sensor, and clutch in one go as part of an upgrade kit?
What - after you've lightend and balanced mine :o
I will get hold of Dave, who will be fine tuning the engine and see what he says - Got my magnecor leads today to go with my Denso iraduim? plugs.

Already starting to get bored waiting for the respray :evil: :evil: :evil:

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

denso iridium plugs? :o


i suspect you just like long words and spending money H? :lol:



seriously, if you've bought and fitted them already fine, but in all honesty, i personally don't think you can beat a good old NGK copper core plug.

Both Platinum and Iridium is all about lasting long, not sparking well.

Ideally, the next practical material up from copper from a conductivity point of view, would be silver, and there is a company (Nology) that are indeed selling them.

I did fancy trying some, but with 16v engines in suds, if they don't suit it, its a hell of a job changing them again! ha ha!
SHREW

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by Kermit »

[quote="petrolhead"]denso iridium plugs? :o


i suspect you just like long words and spending money H? :lol:



Yep That's me :D

Sounded like the best thing ever from the specs

Fifty million years ago, an asteroid composed almost entirely of the precious metal Iridium (Ir-77) struck the earth creating the Gulf of Mexico. From this catastrophe came a metal with properties ideal for spark plug construction. Using this element, DENSO has evolved spark plug design to a new level.
DENSO's patented technology makes Iridium Power the best spark plugs you can buy today.
DENSO Iridium Power plugs use the highest quality materials and are produced in our state-of-the-art manufacturing facilities.
The DENSO patented 360º Laser Welding Process employs a high-energy laser so reliable the electrode resists wear in the worst conditions.

And their called Iridum POWER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on who else couldn't resist them :roll: :roll: :roll: .

Anyway I have spoken to Dave at Mech Motorsport and he's fine with the wasted spark idea - I don't know if he's heard of Nodiz though.

Can you put me down for one Shrew,
Thanks
H

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Hello H

Ok mate, both I and Matt (NoDiz) have seen and noted your interest.

Well done mate.


now, anyone else?



Matt, your input on the Twin Spark thing would be good?

cheers

shrew
SHREW

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by justsuds »

Hi Shrew, - put me down for one too
Thanks, John.

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Marvellous John, well done mate.


would that be for the track car?
SHREW

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by Kermit »

Reckon it's for the supercharged sprint eh John :D







about bloody time :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:
H

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by justsuds »

Better have two then, - would it run water injection too ? Perhaps full engine management would be more suitable for the supercharged Sprint, would take advice on this Shrew.
John.

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by mattatme »

Hi guys...
#In terms of twin spark, I could possible write some custom firmware then use a NODIZ PRO 8 to run two sets of coils.

I wouldn't have the time to a have a mappable secondary event, but can certainly see at having a fixed 'trailing spark', say 10 degree after the primary.

Any thoughts/data to go on peeps?

Cheers
Matt

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by AlfaCorseChris »

Yes but that means that one map will go as plug and play , doesnt it ?

So different variations would require different maps - such as fly by wire or cable models, twin pre cats up front or no pre cats on early models, exhaust variations, sports boxes, air filters etc...

Isnt that right ?

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

what on earth are you waffling on about Chris? :lol: :lol: :lol:
SHREW

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by 88liam »

Hi Guys.

Put me down for one please.

Liam

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

brilliant!



so thats,

Kermit
John (1 or 2?)
Liam
Supercharged (lord knows!)

nearly there already chaps, well done, keep it coming :D
SHREW

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by justsuds »

put me down for just one, - supercharged Sprint currently has a SU carb, I want to bin this and go with full efi system.
John.

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Re: NoDiz vs Megajolt Ignition Control

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Ok John, 1 it is.

I'll have a chat with you on the supercharged and efi thing shortly mate, could be interesting for both of us ;)

incidentally, on that, have you seen that supercharged 16v with the blower grafted directly into the bottom of a stock inlet plenum?

very nice job it is, JB showed it me whilst we were daydreaming some wild concoctions and tuning up one day! ha ha! :D
SHREW

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